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??? 記者：您作為全球頂級(jí)IT專(zhuān)家創(chuàng)造了以Windows為平臺(tái)的軟件產(chǎn)業(yè)的輝煌業(yè)績(jī)，現(xiàn)在又從事慈善事業(yè)，您常常說(shuō)一生要實(shí)現(xiàn)三個(gè)愿望。第三個(gè)愿望，就是讓人類(lèi)用上清潔、經(jīng)濟(jì)的電能。為了達(dá)成這個(gè)愿望，您把希望寄托在您認(rèn)為最有潛力的核能身上。您是從何時(shí)起因何事而對(duì)核能開(kāi)始感興趣的？
蓋茨先生：作為三年前我在TED大會(huì)演講的一部分，我說(shuō)過(guò)，我內(nèi)心深處有一個(gè)愿望，希望全世界能夠生產(chǎn)出比煤更便宜的無(wú)碳能源。
我對(duì)核能感興趣有兩個(gè)原因。第一是因?yàn)樵谥袊?guó)，我們已經(jīng)看到，獲得能源是讓人們擺脫貧困的關(guān)鍵。它極大地促進(jìn)了教育、醫(yī)療、交通以及其他方面的發(fā)展。第二個(gè)原因是，因?yàn)樵谌蜃钬毟F的地區(qū)生活的農(nóng)民，即將面對(duì)由于氣候變化所帶來(lái)的潛在的災(zāi)難性后果。盡管他們幾乎沒(méi)有做過(guò)什么導(dǎo)致氣候變化的事情。世界正面臨著減少碳排放這個(gè)無(wú)法回避的緊要任務(wù)。
我們需要可持續(xù)的、可再生的、低碳的新能源。創(chuàng)造這樣一種資源并將其在全世界范圍內(nèi)使用，會(huì)幫助我們阻止全球變暖，同時(shí)也將對(duì)消除貧困和提高全球居民的生活水平產(chǎn)生重要作用。
縱觀(guān)我的整個(gè)職業(yè)生涯，我對(duì)創(chuàng)新的力量篤信不疑。所以，我通過(guò)投資很多的新能源公司來(lái)追求這個(gè)夢(mèng)想。其中，讓我感到尤其振奮的是泰拉能源公司。它是一個(gè)我參股其中并且擔(dān)任了董事長(zhǎng)的核能公司。這個(gè)公司有一個(gè)創(chuàng)新性的設(shè)計(jì)，能夠極大地提高核能的安全性能，以便讓核能成為非常令人振奮、能夠提供大規(guī)模、安全、清潔能源的方式。
記者：在您看來(lái)，核能在當(dāng)代能源發(fā)展中占有怎樣的位置？您如何看待核能的未來(lái)發(fā)展方向？
蓋茨先生：核能已經(jīng)在現(xiàn)代能源開(kāi)發(fā)方面發(fā)揮著重要的作用，而且它還將在推動(dòng)世界二氧化碳限制排放的進(jìn)程中發(fā)揮更為決定性的作用。相比于其他能源，比如煤炭，核能的總體安全記錄是顯著的。但是，人們對(duì)于核能安全和它所產(chǎn)生的廢物的擔(dān)憂(yōu)，必須得到解決，特別是在福島核事故發(fā)生之后。
在過(guò)去的30年里，盡管依賴(lài)于安全、清潔和廉價(jià)的電力，經(jīng)濟(jì)有了快速發(fā)展，但是在核技術(shù)應(yīng)用領(lǐng)域，卻幾乎沒(méi)有太大的進(jìn)步。當(dāng)你身處發(fā)展中國(guó)家時(shí)，你會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)，用電的好處是顯而易見(jiàn)的。學(xué)習(xí)所需的照明、冷藏疫苗、凈化水、潔凈廚具都需要用電。假如可以以廉價(jià)（和清潔）的方式提供，電力就會(huì)變成為窮人帶來(lái)福祉的變革性力量。
如果能合理、負(fù)責(zé)、又安全地利用好核能，核能就能夠?yàn)槲覀兲峁└咂焚|(zhì)生活所需要的大部分基本電力負(fù)荷。并且，它對(duì)環(huán)境不會(huì)產(chǎn)生任何負(fù)面影響。我對(duì)泰拉能源感興趣，就是因?yàn)楣窘鉀Q了很多核能利用的障礙，提供了一個(gè)更安全、可再生的、更可靠的技術(shù)。
記者：您一直在全世界致力于推廣行波堆，請(qǐng)您談?wù)勑胁ǘ褜?duì)未來(lái)核能技術(shù)以及全球能源經(jīng)濟(jì)的預(yù)期影響。
蓋茨先生：因?yàn)橐庾R(shí)到對(duì)于一種安全、可再生、可靠的核能技術(shù)的需要，我們?cè)?span>2006年創(chuàng)立了泰拉能源，即使今天的核電站設(shè)計(jì)已經(jīng)被證明是非常安全的，我們?nèi)韵Ｍ軌蜃屗影踩榱耸顾袊?guó)家都能夠利用核能，我們也希望可以解決核能長(zhǎng)期以來(lái)成本較高、鈾燃料難以獲得，以及對(duì)于核武器擴(kuò)散的擔(dān)憂(yōu)等問(wèn)題。
我們還希望解決如何處理已使用過(guò)的核燃料的問(wèn)題。為了實(shí)現(xiàn)我們所有的目標(biāo)，我們?cè)u(píng)估了所有已在理論上被研究和討論過(guò)的核反應(yīng)堆類(lèi)型。然后，我們選擇了行波堆，并創(chuàng)立了泰拉能源來(lái)發(fā)展這項(xiàng)技術(shù)。
在過(guò)去的幾年中，我們?cè)谕苿?dòng)行波堆的設(shè)計(jì)和工程方面，已經(jīng)取得了極大進(jìn)展，超越了傳統(tǒng)的研發(fā)階段。我們已采納了從以前的參考電站汲取的經(jīng)驗(yàn)教訓(xùn)。我們通過(guò)最先進(jìn)的分析和工程工具，將研究和電站操作經(jīng)驗(yàn)結(jié)合起來(lái)，并利用了來(lái)自世界各地領(lǐng)先專(zhuān)家和機(jī)構(gòu)通過(guò)共同努力形成的成果。我們已完成核心的概念設(shè)計(jì)，并進(jìn)展到工程設(shè)計(jì)階段。
我們也已經(jīng)開(kāi)始了許多關(guān)鍵材料和燃料的測(cè)試項(xiàng)目，以進(jìn)一步增強(qiáng)對(duì)這一技術(shù)的信心。我們希望，通過(guò)與合適的合作伙伴合作，我們可以快速進(jìn)入到工程的詳細(xì)設(shè)計(jì)階段。此外，我們希望，通過(guò)結(jié)合合作伙伴和我們的優(yōu)勢(shì)，在2023年前成功建造行波反應(yīng)堆的示范堆。
除了第四代反應(yīng)堆設(shè)計(jì)中固有的安全性能提升，行波堆技術(shù)還能夠利用貧鈾并簡(jiǎn)化燃料循環(huán)過(guò)程。它可以大幅減少核廢料，使乏燃料處置問(wèn)題變得更簡(jiǎn)單。最終，它甚至可以使用已經(jīng)使用過(guò)的輕水反應(yīng)堆燃料，將其作為燃料來(lái)源，進(jìn)而降低需要儲(chǔ)存的乏燃料的量。
鑒于所有這些原因，行波堆將會(huì)提高未來(lái)核電的經(jīng)濟(jì)競(jìng)爭(zhēng)力，我相信這是一個(gè)有突破性的進(jìn)展。通過(guò)我們與合作伙伴的通力合作，我們將實(shí)現(xiàn)向全世界提供安全、經(jīng)濟(jì)、環(huán)保和可持續(xù)的核能的目標(biāo)。
記者：從世界經(jīng)濟(jì)可持續(xù)發(fā)展以及改善人類(lèi)居住環(huán)境和大氣環(huán)境角度來(lái)看，發(fā)展核能是科學(xué)理性的選擇。但對(duì)于核能的發(fā)展一直有不同的聲音，您如何看待這些聲音？您對(duì)核能安全以及后處理等問(wèn)題怎么看？
蓋茨先生：我們認(rèn)識(shí)到，關(guān)于核能技術(shù)有一系列的擔(dān)憂(yōu)，主要是圍繞安全、核廢物和核武器擴(kuò)散問(wèn)題。我們剛剛度過(guò)福島核事故的兩周年紀(jì)念日，朝鮮現(xiàn)在又成為世界擔(dān)心核武器擴(kuò)散的新聞焦點(diǎn)，我們需要以負(fù)責(zé)任的態(tài)度，合理地解決這些問(wèn)題。
泰拉能源的目標(biāo)是開(kāi)發(fā)一種更高標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的新技術(shù)，以減輕對(duì)于安全問(wèn)題和核武器擴(kuò)散的擔(dān)憂(yōu)。核能現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)是非常非常安全的，但是我們相信泰拉公司提出的這種設(shè)計(jì)方案能使得核能更加安全。它依賴(lài)于自然的物理定律，能夠緩解類(lèi)似于福島核事故那樣的嚴(yán)重后果。它可以有效地使用廉價(jià)的燃料。它減少了對(duì)于鈾濃縮和乏燃料處理的需要，并簡(jiǎn)化了燃料循環(huán)。這些特點(diǎn)使得將鈾轉(zhuǎn)化為可用于核武器的材料變得尤其困難。我們把所有的這些視為行波堆的優(yōu)點(diǎn)，并因之得到很多人的認(rèn)同而深受鼓舞。
記者：據(jù)悉您此次參加博鰲論壇，與中國(guó)國(guó)家主席習(xí)近平進(jìn)行了會(huì)面。是否可以給我們透露一下會(huì)面時(shí)您談及的話(huà)題？對(duì)于中國(guó)的核能發(fā)展，您如何評(píng)價(jià)？在選擇核能發(fā)展及第四代核電技術(shù)開(kāi)發(fā)的國(guó)際合作伙伴方面，您有什么想法？
蓋茨先生：我很榮幸能夠在博鰲同習(xí)主席見(jiàn)面，我們討論了中國(guó)提高世界各國(guó)貧窮人口福祉的機(jī)會(huì)。在短短的幾十年間，中國(guó)幫助6億人擺脫貧困的記錄為造福其他許多國(guó)家，特別是非洲提供了豐富的經(jīng)驗(yàn)。
就中國(guó)的核能發(fā)展而言，在全世界核能領(lǐng)域新建電站中，中國(guó)占據(jù)了40%的領(lǐng)先地位。我相信中國(guó)的核電項(xiàng)目將成為其它國(guó)家負(fù)責(zé)任地發(fā)展核電的一個(gè)榜樣。中國(guó)核電項(xiàng)目的規(guī)模以及其所擁有的技術(shù)人才，將使其成為領(lǐng)先的核能技術(shù)創(chuàng)新者和核電站的建造者。
泰拉能源的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者與中國(guó)資深的能源專(zhuān)家有良好的互動(dòng)。泰拉能源目前仍在與開(kāi)發(fā)行波堆的合適的合作伙伴深入交流。但我們非常欽佩中國(guó)對(duì)推進(jìn)核能發(fā)展所做出的貢獻(xiàn)。對(duì)于泰拉能源行波堆技術(shù)的最先實(shí)驗(yàn)和部署，我們正在尋求對(duì)于電力負(fù)荷有著極大需求，并且渴望在先進(jìn)的快堆方面能夠積極推進(jìn)的合作伙伴。
記者：發(fā)展核能，是您對(duì)未來(lái)50年許下的愿望，福島核事故是否延緩了您的預(yù)期？您的計(jì)劃有沒(méi)有做出相應(yīng)的調(diào)整？您認(rèn)為未來(lái)20年核能發(fā)展的關(guān)鍵在哪里？
蓋茨先生：福島核事故有很多重要的經(jīng)驗(yàn)教訓(xùn)值得整個(gè)行業(yè)銘記在心。福島事故突顯了對(duì)于像泰拉能源能夠提供的新技術(shù)的需要。事故發(fā)生后，我們暫停下來(lái)仔細(xì)確認(rèn)能夠抵御地震和洪水等相關(guān)災(zāi)難的行波堆的設(shè)計(jì)細(xì)節(jié)。我們認(rèn)真研究行波堆的安全特性，并且我們對(duì)行波堆提供更加先進(jìn)的反應(yīng)堆安全設(shè)計(jì)方案非常有信心。
泰拉能源公司設(shè)計(jì)的內(nèi)在安全系統(tǒng)不依賴(lài)于廠(chǎng)外電或水，這些系統(tǒng)能夠更好地抵御任何一種自然災(zāi)害。
未來(lái)20年核能發(fā)展的關(guān)鍵，是形成一個(gè)簡(jiǎn)單的燃料循環(huán)從而從根本上改變我們目前的核能生產(chǎn)方式。我們需要開(kāi)發(fā)可以讓我們的人民確認(rèn)核能安全性的一個(gè)新安全系統(tǒng)，需要開(kāi)發(fā)技術(shù)解決方案，以減少或消除可能導(dǎo)致核武器擴(kuò)散的區(qū)域。出于對(duì)如何處理和儲(chǔ)存核廢料的擔(dān)憂(yōu)，我們需要尋找新的方法以減少核廢料的產(chǎn)生，并開(kāi)發(fā)出更好的貯存和處置核廢料的方式。在未來(lái)的20年，所有這一切都是非?？尚泻陀斜匾?，我們相信泰拉能源的設(shè)計(jì)可以解決這些問(wèn)題，并可在未來(lái)十年付諸實(shí)踐。
記者：您對(duì)中國(guó)核工業(yè)的發(fā)展有怎樣的期待？請(qǐng)用兩句話(huà)概括一下。
蓋茨先生：隨著能源需求的增長(zhǎng)，傳統(tǒng)能源的生產(chǎn)方式，比如煤炭、天然氣等已經(jīng)不能滿(mǎn)足逐漸升級(jí)的不對(duì)我們的地球排放更多二氧化碳的需求。鑒于核電發(fā)展的規(guī)模和承諾，中國(guó)將在下個(gè)世紀(jì)成為全球能源發(fā)展的重要市場(chǎng)。我相信，以致力于核能科學(xué)研究和創(chuàng)新技術(shù)發(fā)展的決心，中國(guó)必將成為世界核能的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)者。事實(shí)上，中國(guó)已經(jīng)在這條路上取得了進(jìn)展。?? （楊金鳳）
?。ㄌ貏e鳴謝：泰拉能源公司高級(jí)副總裁兼中國(guó)首席代表王定南、中核集團(tuán)核動(dòng)力事業(yè)部副主任章慶華為本次專(zhuān)訪(fǎng)所付出的努力）
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蓋茨先生回復(fù)《中國(guó)核工業(yè)》雜志的書(shū)面采訪(fǎng)函（原稿）
Q(Question)：As the world’s top IT expert, you succeeded in the software industry of Windows platform. Now you are busy in charity work. You always said that you have three wishes during your lifetime. The third is to make clean, economic electric energy available to the human race. To realize it, you lay your hope in nuclear energy. When did you have interest in nuclear energy, and why?
A(Answer): As part of a speech I gave at Ted threeyears ago, I said I had a very deep-seated wish that would allow the world to produce carbon-free energy cheaper than coal.
I’m interested in energy for two reasons. First, because as China has seen, access to energy is crucial for lifting people out of poverty. It improves education, health care, transportation, and many other aspects of development.? And second, because subsistence farmers in the poorest parts of the world will face potentially devastating consequences from climate change though they did essentially nothing to contribute to the problem. The world faces an inescapable imperative to reduce carbon emissions.
We need new sources of sustainable, scalable, low-carbon energy. Inventing such a source and making it available to the world will help us stop warming our planet and, at the same time will be a powerful force to eradicate poverty and improve global living standards.
Throughout my whole career, I’ve been a believer in the power of innovation, so I’ve invested in a number of new energy companies that are pursuing this dream. One that I am particularly excited about is TerraPower, a nuclear power company that I’m quite involved with and where I serve as Chairman. It has an innovative design and vastly improved safety features that make it a very exciting approach to providing safe, clean power at scale.
Q: How do you think the role of nuclear energy played in contemporary energy development? What’s your view on further development of nuclear power?
A: Nuclear power has played an important role in energy development and can play an even more decisive role moving forward in a carbon-constrained world. Compared to other sources like coal, its overall safety record is notable. But concerns about the safety of nuclear energy and the waste it creates must be addressed, particularly after Fukushima.
Over the past 30 years, there has been surprisingly little improvement in the available nuclear technologies despite the rapid economic development that results from access to safe, clean and cheap electricity. When you spend time in the developing world, the benefits of access to electricity are abundantly clear. Access to electricity means lights to study by, refrigeration for vaccines, sterile water and clean cooking facilities. If provided in a cheap (and clean) way, electricity has transformative power to improve the well-being of the poor.
Nuclear energy, when harnessed properly, responsibly and safely, can provide the immense levels of base load electricity needed for a high quality of life. Even better, it does so without negative impacts on the environment. I’m excited about TerraPower’s approach because it addresses many of the barriers to the use of nuclear energy and provides a safer, scalable, more secure technology.
Q: You have been engaged in promotion of traveling wave reactor for a long time. How do you think of the expected effect that the traveling wave reactor will on the nuclear technology and the world’s energy economic in the future?
A: We founded TerraPower back in 2006 because we recognized the need for a safe, scalable, secure nuclear energy technology. Even though today’s nuclear plant designs have proven to be extremely safe, we wanted to make them even safer. In order for all countries to be able to have access to nuclear energy, we also wanted to address the long-term cost and availability of uranium fuel, as well as weapons proliferation concerns.
We also wanted to address the issue of what to do with spent fuel. To accomplish all of our objectives, we evaluated all the types of nuclear reactors that have been studied or discussed in theory. Then we selected the traveling wave reactor and founded TerraPower to develop it.
We’ve made great progress. During the last couple years, we have made great strides in advancing the design and engineering of the traveling wave reactor beyond the traditional research and development stage. We have adopted the lessons learned from previous reference plants. We have incorporated research and operating results, coupled them with the most advanced analytical and engineering tools, and engaged the joint efforts of leading experts and institutions from around the world. We have been able to complete the essential conceptual design and have progressed to the engineering design stage.
We’ve also started many key materials and fuel testing programs to further our confidence in this technology. We are hoping that, with the right partners on board, we can quickly move into the detailed engineering design. Furthermore, we hope to combine our partners'strengths with ours to successfully build the prototype traveling wave reactor plant by the year 2023.
In addition to the safety improvement inherent in the Generation IV reactor design, traveling wave reactor technology can use depleted uranium and simplify the fuel cycle. It produces substantially less waste, making the issue of fuel disposal less complex. Eventually, it should even be able to use spent light water reactor fuel, using it as a fuel source and further reducing the need to store spent fuel.
For all these reasons, it will improve the economic competitiveness of nuclear power in the future. I believe this is a breakthrough approach and that with the combined efforts of our partners, we can achieve our goal to provide safe, economic, environmentally friendly and sustainable nuclear energy to the entire world.
Q: We all know that nuclear energy is a scientific and rational choice for energy development considering the sustainable development of world economy and improvement of human living environment. However, there are different voices about the development of nuclear power. How do you deal with those different opinions? What do you think about the nuclear safety and the nuclear non-proliferation?
A: We recognize that there are a number of concerns with nuclear technology, mainly revolving around safety, waste, and weapons proliferation. We just had the second anniversary of the Fukushima disaster and, with theDemocratic People"s Republic of Korea in the news now around proliferation concerns, we need to responsibly and reasonably address these concerns.
TerraPower’s goal is to develop a new technology that will set an even higher standard that will address legitimate concerns over safety and weapons proliferation. Nuclear is very, very safe today, but we believe this design will make it dramatically safer. It relies on natural laws of physics to mitigate accident scenarios like the one at Fukushima. It efficiently uses an inexpensive fuel source. It reduces the need for enrichment and chemical reprocessing and simplifies the fuel cycle. These characteristics will make it much more difficult to convert uranium into materials that can be used in nuclear weapons. We view all of these as tremendously positive attributes and have been encouraged that so many others share this view.
Q: I heard that you have met with Chairman XI Jinping during your attending of Boao Forum. Could you reveal us a little about? topics of the meeting? What’s your comment on China’s development of nuclear energy? What do you think of your international cooperate partner in nuclear energy and its G4 technology?
A: I was honored to meet with Chairman Xi in Bo'ao and we discussed the opportunity China has to improve the well being of the poor around the world. China's record of lifting 600 million people out of poverty in just a few decades provides a rich source of expertise that could benefit many other countries, particularly those in Africa.
Regarding China’s development of nuclear energy, it leads the nuclear sector with 40 percent of all new plants being built in the world. I believe China’s program will become an example for other countries in scaling up nuclear power responsibly. With the scale of its program and its technical talent, it will become a leading innovator as well as constructor of nuclear power plants.
TerraPower’s leadership has had excellent interactions with our fellow energy experts here. It does not yet have a partner to develop the traveling wave reactor, but we certainly admire China for its commitment to advancing nuclear energy. For the initial testing and deployment of TerraPower’s traveling wave reactor technology, we are seeking a partner that has a great demand for base load electricity, along with a desire to be an active innovator in advanced fast reactors.
Q: Developing nuclear power is your wish for the next 50 years. Did the Fukushima event make any difference to this wish? Did you make any change on your plans accordingly? In your view, what is the key to nuclear energy development over the next 20 years?
A: There are a number of important lessons from the Fukushima incident that the entire industry is taking to heart. It certainly underscores the need for new technologies like TerraPower’s. After the incident, we paused to carefully confirm details relevant to earthquake and flooding related to the traveling wave design. We carefully addressed safety features, and we’re confident that the traveling wave reactor provides great advancements in safe reactor designs.
TerraPower’s inherent safety systems do not rely on offsite power or water, allowing these systems to better withstand any kind of natural disaster.
The key to nuclear energy development over the next 20 years is a simpler fuel cycle that fundamentally changes the way we produce nuclear energy. We need to develop new safety systems to reassure citizens that nuclear energy is safe, and develop technical solutions to reduce or eliminate areas that may lead to weapons proliferation. Because of concern over treating or storing nuclear waste, we need to develop innovative ways to reduce waste creation and better ways for storage and disposal. All of this is very possible and necessary in the next 20 years and we believe that TerraPower’s design addresses these concerns and can be put into practice over the next ten years.
Q: What’s your expectation on China’s development of the nuclear industry?
A: As the demand for energy grows, traditional forms of power production like coal or gas cannot meet these escalating needs without adding significantly to our?CO2???load as a planet. Given the scope of its program and commitment to nuclear power, China stands out as a key market for overall energy development in the next century. I believe that China, with its commitment to scientific research and technical innovation, will become a world leader in nuclear energy. It is already well on its way.
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